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This program while titrating off of medications


StevenS
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6 years ago 0 StevenS 29 logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo
Hi Kaitie,

I am glad to hear that I am not the only one who didn't do the forms from day one.  I AM trying and it is just taking me time to try to figure things out.

I read through all of Session 3 and have yet another form.  They are referring to previous forms.  I don't know what is best.  To stop reading since I have not done the forms, or to keep reading and then hopefully things will start to make sense and I will be able to fill out the forms to be able to work from.  In some ways, this is all a big experiment for me.  Since I don't have someone that can answer my questions as they come up, it slows me down and then other questions come up down the line as I am reading.  Hopefully this will all balance out and I will be able to start doing the program as it was written.

As far as Davit goes, I am sure that he means well.  I just don't think that he realizes how he comes off sometimes.  For someone who is not trusting and yet desperately looking for someone to trust to help me through understanding these things (in this case), it is very hard.  I am in a fragile state with the the med changes, the interwoven health issues, both psychological and physiological.  Having something "thrown" at you puts people on the defensive...particularly those who have had experiences with many methods that didn't work in the past.  I am realizing allot in these past few months that I have never thought of before.  This is good on one hand, but on the other hand, truly shows me that I have been messed with by people that I trusted.  That only makes a person distrust first...ask questions later. 
 
Based on what little I know of Davit, he does have allot to offer, but it is only useful if it's delivery is appropriate to the person it is being delivered to.  He mentioned how his therapist was "intense", but helped him allot.  I know without question that I would have left that therapist in an instant because they were unyielding and self-righteous.  He had to have courage to be able to deal with a person like that.  I need someone that is more nurturing and willing to listen to me and able to tell where I am at and coming from.  I wouldn't give someone like he dealt with the time of day...and if they persisted, I would have gone on the defensive and if they persisted, I would have threatened them with disciplinary action from the governing factors that control their license...something any doctor fears the most.  When I am threatened, I threaten back.  This is a "coping mechanism" that I learned working for a law firm for a number of years.
 
In any case, I can only do what I can do at any given moment.  I am doing the best I can do at this point.  Hopefully as time goes by and I gain more understanding, I will be able to better utilize this program.
 
In answer to you question about having a good therapist.  I have one that I have only seem a few times.  She is looking promising, but we haven't gotten into the "meat" of anything yet.  She has done CBT before, so it is likely that she will be able to help me more with this.  I am trying to get weekly appts. with her because having appts. every other week, just isn't enough.  To much is happening and too much falls through the cracks.
 
Thank you for your response.
 
Steven
kaitie995
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6 years ago 0 kaitie995 177 logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo
Steven,

I was using this site for months before I filled out my first form. There were a lot of reasons for that, and I probably wasn't quite ready. I kept using the support group though, and read all the information in the sessions- I think I stopped at "More About Avoidance" and then filled out forms. CBT certainly did not come easy to me, nor did it to Davit or any of the other members I have spoken to on here, so it didn't click with us straight away either.

This is an individual thing, but I can see your point of view. I'm sure you were on the right track. Did you find filling out the form useful? If not, what would you change? You can make it your own.

I suffer from multiple anxiety disorders too, and it seems when you focus on one, another worsens without you realising. Physical symptoms certainly make things worse. Do you have a good psychologist? My new one is fantastic and she can help me work through things I can't on my own. And it's a more personal approach, so I can talk to her about more specific things affecting me.

I do agree in a sense with treating the symptoms you have now compared to in the past. You're not the same person you were when this started, and so much has happened since then. With that said, I also agree with you that how that event/s has  affected you and some of the decisions made in the past associated with it as well need to be dealt with too. That's how my psychologist has helped me.

Kaitie.
StevenS
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6 years ago 0 StevenS 29 logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo
Kaitie,

I do understand the concept of the forms.  I understand that for some people they make sense right away.  My issue with them is that they didn't "click" with me.  It wasn't until I went to Session 2 without doing any of the forms (which I was lead to believe was something you shouldn't do) did I get some insight in to them.  I am not saying that I am a convert just yet.  I am saying that I am trying to figure this stuff out for if I don't understand something, I can't be benefited by it.  That isn't the case of all things as Davit pointed out by using a car as an example..."you can drive a car without knowing the intricacies of an engine".  As i said earlier, I no longer blindly accept much of anything anymore.  Life has taught me that...whether that be good or bad, I guess it depends on the actual subject matter.  Just as if someone said, "jump off of this building... there is a net that will catch you"...I would certainly not be the first to try.  I would study the situation and analyze the outcome of others jumping and watching the results.  Not a great example, I know...but it simply shows that I need to understand at least some aspect of something for me to do it. 
 
All I was asking for regarding the forms was something that I could understand.  It wasn't until I got to Session 2 and then read the "filled out" examples and then had anxious feelings that I could use to try the form out.  I even attached the form to an email to Davit showing him that I had done one and also wanting to see if that was the right idea.  Unfortunately, all I got was, " these forms are individual...between you and yourself" (paraphrased).  I wasn't asking for a critique on the actual content or have the content analyzed.  Just did I have to right idea.  That was off-putting...to be blunt.  Here I am trying to do what people (especially including him) were saying was soooo important and then I tried and get a response like that.  To me...very disconcerting.  But it could have been a miscommunication.  Unfortunately with text based communication...that is a rampant problem.
 
I started this I think on the 18th and it is now the 24th.  I have filled out 1 each of 3 different forms.   My understanding is that I should be filling out more that that...at the very least, one per day....and the Diary portion is the same thing.  Allot of the form based things on this simply are extremely limiting.  It only allows for certain pieces of information and no more.  In my case it doesn't allow for the fact that I am titrating medications.  I can't put on a form that the symptoms could be completely a withdrawal symptom that happens to look exactly like Anxious Feelings or a Panic Attack.  I have been told that I can start CBT at any point regardless of my medications.  I have read 2 Sessions on the sister site regarding depression which I also suffer from.   All of my symptoms are quite often interwoven.  Having physiological symptoms on top of that where you aren't completely sure what is causing what is also an issue.
 
I have tried to figure out allot of this stuff over decades.  Many things have changes through the years as well...mostly in that I have become worse and more things have been added to my diagnoses list.  Without a support system in place, it is very hard to do allot of this stuff on your own...particularly when you are starting out in a new program such as CBT.  To have someone who has already been through it come on like a CBT poster-child and then come on with judgement and extraordinary fervor is, at least for me..extremely off-putting.  I have never liked groups because I was brutally harassed, verbally and physically growing up.  Even though I wanted to part of a group and have friends like the others,  it was better for me to keep to myself and play alone.  Between the sexual abuse and the subsequent verbal and physical abuse I got from the other children, it cemented in my mind many of the characteristics that I still display.  Now, I am faced with dealing with the aftermath of all of that.  Also, being told (not here) that it isn't important to deal with the source of the issues, but to only deal with the behavior/symptoms that are occurring today goes against my base understanding.  If something that happened long ago that is affecting you know, I don't understand how you can only look at the symptoms.  All of my life, the doctors and therapists have looked at and treated the symptoms while never dealing with the source of the issue.  If you put a bandaid on a bullet wound.  Yeah, it covers up the hole, but it does nothing to repair the internal damage that has been cased.  That is just my point of logic...and experience.  The treatment that I have received since 1971 has been horribly lacking and ineffectual.  Now that I have more information, I want to address both the symptoms so I can function, but also "fix" the damage that caused the whole thing in the first place.
 
I have gone on WAY too long here, so I will shut up.
 
Steven
kaitie995
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6 years ago 0 kaitie995 177 logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo
Davit, it's okay seriously don't worry about it. I actually like your lectures now. Haha. I've learnt in life some people are harder to read than others. My Mum holds her cards close, but I know the giveaways in her poker face.
I'm always saddened by the fact that my friends are all living the life of an 18-year-old. Most have moved to other cities for uni and are partying hard, enjoying it. Even though I turned 18 in January and am legally able to drink, I have not touched a single alcoholic drink in my life. I know it's a good thing, and I'm not frying as many brain cells as they are, but it's symbolic of how my anxiety is holding me back.

I understand that Steven, boy did I fight my first psychologist and dietician! They taught me though that what I want and what the anxiety wants for me aren't always the same. You keep saying how you're not sure if the CBT forms will work for you, yet you're still using this site. To me that shows you do want this, and if so, keep at it no matter how much the anxiety tells you not to.

Wow that's confusing. I've been on Zyprexa before, and became slightly dependent on it after a year. Not addicted as such, but I felt I wouldn't be able to cope without it. Now I'm on 100mg of Zoloft, but before that it was Prozac. It certainly takes time, and I hope they'll find what works for you soon.

You don't have to talk about anything you don't feel comfortable talking about.

The defence mechanism you mentioned is something we all have. At the end of the day, anxiety in itself is a defence mechanism to keep us safe. Perhaps both our defence mechanisms have butted heads so to speak, and left us feeling like we're being criticised despite our intentions.

Kaitie.
StevenS
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6 years ago 0 StevenS 29 logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo
Katie,

I apologize for being dismissive.  Over my 42 years in and out of therapy, I developed a very elaborate defense mechanism.  I have learned (and got very good at...to the point of it being completely automatic) how to eliminate certain perceived threats.  the key word is "perceived".  This would of course include any idea that is contradictory to my own experience.  Just in case you didn't read on one of these posts (I don't know now which one, but I am currently going through a titration off of Paxil, an SSRI that I have been on for 15+ years.  the symptoms of the withdrawal were so intense in the beginning that I ended up in the ER without realizing what was causing them.  The titration what being supervised by a doctor and pharmacist.  I am now titrating at a slower rate and I am currently at 10mg per day from 60mg per day.  I know I am much more on edge than normal because of this, so my defenses are on high alert as well.  

Just out of pure experience and age, I am also less willing to "blindly" take someone else's experience as being one that would transfer to me as we are all different and what might work for you , might not work for me and vise-versa.  I can apologize for my current state of mind, but I wold have to make a blanket apology as after I get off of the Paxil, then the Zypreza goes which was added to help me get off of the Paxil.  then it's the Klonopin and then we will see about where I stand with the Tegretol. IT will be a while until I am balanced from all of that.  How I do during each of those, only time will tell as each person handles things differently.  I can only do what I can do.  I cannot truthfully make any other statement than that.
 
I will say though, that I think you are very lucky that you are treating your issues at a very early age.  All of my life has been ruined by sexual abuse at the age of 5 which only in Feb. of this year I truly realized did the kind of damage it did.  I am very angry and bitter about the fact that it has taken away from me what it has.  And let me say right now...I DON'T WANT AN OPINION ON THAT STATEMENT.  I have heard it before and don't care at least at this point to hear anything again.  If anyone cares at all that I feel comfortable using these forums, then they will not challenge me on at least that.  In fact, if there is too much challenging of my posts, I will simply stop posting.  I ask you is that beneficial?  I deal with enough mental self-flagellation that I don't need any more external criticism right now.
 
Thank you,
 
Steven
Davit
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6 years ago 0 Davit 6252 logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo
Kaitie, my God I'm so sorry, thank you for letting me know. I guess I am too abrupt. I think someone else said that too.

I never knew you were only eighteen till you said so. It still wouldn't have mattered if you were eighty, I would still have wanted to help. No one should go through this alone. I know because I did and it was no fun.

Okay, anyone else think I didn't like them?  Oh, there I go again, too abrupt. I see now. 

Davit
kaitie995
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6 years ago 0 kaitie995 177 logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo
Steven,

I must admit that it feels like you are attacking everything we say. In another thread, it felt as though you were dismissing everything I said. Although I'm 18, I have suffered anxiety my whole life and have gained a lot of knowledge from my experiences. At first CBT was something I couldn't see working for me either, but I realised that in the past I've done exposure on its own and the panic attacks returned a year later because I hadn't dealt with everything in the panic cycle. This is a lifelong thing in the sense that anxious people tend to see things differently to others. Things that people do without a second thought can be quite difficult for us. Doesn't mean that we can't, and it does become easier as time goes by. When things get stressful for me, the panic tends to come back. It's like having a low immunity and getting a cold. You deal with the cold on your own and then keep going again.

Kaitie.

P.s. when I first joined this site, I actually thought Davit didn't like me. Now I know that's not true. We just had to get to know each other. Maybe you will get to know us too.
StevenS
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6 years ago 0 StevenS 29 logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo
Ashley,

I don't question Davit's rights as to how he presents his views and experiences.  I know all too well how the written word doesn't translate well when it comes to situations like this where having intonation and body ques to go by in addition to the words can make all the difference.  Also, being able to get clarification on the spot if there is anything that is unclear. 
 
I loath texting for that very reason and deal with a few people that use cell phones to text each other all of the time.  It is creating a generation of people who's communication skills are horribly lacking.  I won't even go into the rude behavior of leaving a conversation in the middle of a discussion or the poor grammar and ridicules abbreviations.  I would literally outlaw them for everything except for use with the hearing impaired and for business use if I had my way.
 
As far as Davit's "style", it is a situation where he uses "tough love" and "take no prisoners" and I don't respond well to that approach.  Some people do and thrive with it. 
 
I have been in therapy for more years that many of my doctor's have been in practice and with enough different doctors and therapists through the years to know what I will and will not tolerate.  I can tolerate having things brought to my attention that I don't "want to hear", but I will not tolerate a constant stream of it.  I will shut the other person off.  Something that comes with age I guess.
 
Steven
 
 

Ashley -> Health Educator
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Hi Steven,

Glad I am not alone in that. Thanks for pointing that out. Makes me feel less grammatically deficient

It is your right to ask how you would like to  be supported here and good for you for drawing boundaries where you need to. Davit, also has the right to support in the way he choses so I am sure after reading your latest post Davit will stop sharing this thoughts with you. I just want to add like Davit said, emotions don't translate well in written language I imagine if you were to talk to Davit in person you may take how he says things differently.
 
Regarding the spell checker. I will pass your thoughts along and hopefully when we are able to upgrade the site we can change the spell checker issue.
 

Ashley, Health Educator
StevenS
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6 years ago 0 StevenS 29 logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo
Davit,
 
Well, it looks like I hit a nerve.  If your method is going to be "tough love", that is fine.  But use on on someone else.  That way we won't have to argue.  I will take my chances without your "insight".

Regards,
 
Steven

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