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I need some help with the forms from Session 1


Davit
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6 years ago 0 Davit 6252 logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo
Okay, continuing on the subject. A child that can go to a parent or person it trusts and say am I stupid and get a positive answer will build a positive core belief but a child that has a parent with no patience that says you are stupid will build a negative core belief for you. You believe it because someone said it was so. It doesn't mean it is true but how do you know. So you believe it and if you believe it long enough nothing will change your mind but you. This is why you challenge every negative thought over and over because your core beliefs are going to fight you. This is why you get help. An interesting thing happens when you prove a core belief to be false. You get an empty spot and have to put something there in it's place. No waffling make it positive or you are right back where you started. 
Not all core beliefs are negative and not all negative ones are bad. Negative thought is a survival skill, you need some to protect you in a emergency. Too much negative thought makes everything an emergency. This is panic.

I can't paste the triangle so I will put it up as my avatar.

Davit

Davit
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6 years ago 0 Davit 6252 logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo
Steven

Some back ground information to make core beliefs easier to understand. 
We are born with very little inherited instinct because we can think and don't need it. We have just enough to function.
So we take this empty brain and fill it with things from our surroundings. The first 11 months are important to form emotions and personality. The next 6 years we use these emotions and personality to build who we are. If you adopt a baby that baby will be what you make it. If you adopt a seven year old that child will be what it's parents made it. Oh you can change it but it will be a chore. Some one important once said give me a child till it is seven and I can make it anything.

So now we come to core beliefs. Every thing we see and experience dictates how we act and think. Fine but some of that may not be true. If we are given the impression we are stupid and have no reason to believe other wise then we will believe it. This is a core belief. The root of all future thought on the subject. Core beliefs are either negative or positive. No in between. Core beliefs are strong because they are us and we have nothing or no one to counter them. Core beliefs control us and our actions. Most core beliefs are built at a young age, but not all. Negative core beliefs are responsible for how we treat triggers. 

Going to post this so I don't lose it.
StevenS
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6 years ago 0 StevenS 29 logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo
Hello Davit,

I have read some on core beliefs and understand it to some degree, but I haven't gotten the "ah-ha" moment where I truly understand.  I should interject here and tell you that I have difficulties reading because of mild dyslexia.  I have to often read something a few times so that I get it.  I have never liked reading because of it.  I am a visual person and do really well visualizing.  Having to read allot of this technical information is rather daunting...especially to understand it.  I do have a collection of books, but most of them are what I call reference books on many different subjects that I am or have been interested in.  Also, when something challenges me or my thoughts, I get a very uncomfortable physical feeling that almost requires me to stop reading.  It feeling like my skin is crawling and my eyes start to hurt inside my eye sockets.  It is very hard to describe, but it doesn't feel good at all.

Doing all of this stuff online is difficult for me because it is all reading...even on the forum, it is typing and reading.  I do so much better talking with a human and being able to ask questions as they come up instead of writing to someone and then waiting for a response.  I know that so much has been going on over the past few months that I could ask a question and the next day has no relevance anymore because of all that is happening and my progression.  I hope that makes sense.

I know that when I am having anxiety and someone tries to distract me with something that is irrelevant, it only makes me think of the anxiety thoughts more intensely...but if something real is brought up, my anxiety can disappear all by itself.  You know, like someone says, "just don't think about it", or "think of a pretty day" or something like that.  To me that is almost insulting and i let them know that.  I understand that if someone hasn't had a panic attack or extreme anxiety, they simply can't understand.  I know they don't mean any harm and are actually trying to help, but what ends up happening is that I think of the fear and anxiety that much more.
 
I tried to do a search on your writing on thought triangles,  but didn't have any luck finding anything.  My ability at putting in the correct search words evades me allot.  My dad was always amazing at being able to put just the right search words in and coming up wit information that I couldn't find. 
 
I would be interested in knowing more about core beliefs and the thought triangle.
 
Thanks,
 
Steven
Davit
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6 years ago 0 Davit 6252 logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo
Steven

Most of what you have posted is about core beliefs. Before I rattle on, how much do you know about them?
No by distractions I mean things like looking out a window in a restaurant or staring at the floor. Visualizing the people around you as different kinds of dogs. Navel gazing (meditation) flower sniffing. 

If you read what I wrote about the thought triangle on here you will see that distractions break the circling cycle between thought and action that is just going round and round and creating panic. By changing action you can think everything is okay and leave a positive in memory rather than let it stop on it's own and leave a negative.
By the way thousands of these thoughts happen subconsciously every second. You normally will not notice them. They just happen. Because so many happen so fast you don't focus on any till they start to go round and round. At which point you go into anxiety (not a bad thing) but if the thought is negative you progress to panic (still not a bad thing if it is necessary) When it picks up negatives on it's way round and won't shut down then it is an attack and this is a bad thing.
There are lots of these triangles working at the same time on different thoughts. Benzos reduce the number of these and the number of pathways they are on so the chances of cycling are reduced. As you know, they are not selective so you lose more than you gain in a sense.
Information gathering is like the fingers on your hand they lead to one point and this is fed into another finger in a cluster that feeds your brain. Each one of these finger like gathering points has a gate that says relevant or not relevant. Most gates stay closed except in an emergency when they open so you have more information flow and more choices. Ativan is a dangerous drug because it creates a priority pathway by closing down all but the one it uses. When you stop it all the other pathways have lost there ability to choose and you get too much information. This is called rebound. A form of panic attack. This is why it is not recommended for more than a month.
SSRIs work different. They stabilize what some people refer to as the happy chemical in your brain. But some people never adjust to the sedative side of them.
The other drug is a mood stabilizer. It works on a different chemical in a different part of the brain.
CBT reduces the load and the need for these chemicals.

Davit

PS all the information above is on the net or available from a therapist.
StevenS
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6 years ago 0 StevenS 29 logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo
Hi Davit,

The dog was my first Golden Retriever.  She was born one month to the day after my did died.  She had a brain tumor in the end and so 1 week before her 11th birthday, I had to put her to sleep because she cold no longer walk.  That happened on the 4th of this month.  I have 3 other dogs and one of them is getting up there in age.

Throughout my life, I have always lived either in the past or the future...never the present.  I have tried to be present in the now, but because of living so long thinking the other way, it has proven hard not to think of things as I have all of my life.
 
As far as dealing with allot of my past.  I had many issues in childhood after the sexual abuse that just further cemented my feelings of worthlessness.  I was mercilessly abused verbally and physically by the other children through most of my school years.  It was the worst in my early years, grades 1 to 8.  In high school things were some better, but the damage had been done.  During those early years, I yearned for someone to come and make it all stop...that never happened.
 
The thing is, I know about a great deal of this.  I think I mentioned in another post that I didn't realize until this February that the sexual abuse had such a big effect on my adult life regarding relationships.
 
Having been through so much therapy and medications through my life gave me tons of information on how therapy works and how to get around the therapists if they presented a problem for me.  I was always told that I was "too smart for my own good"...that my intelligence actually worked against me in therapy.  They were probably right.  I could see though all of their techniques and "games" with ease.  Now when I see a therapist, I warn them ahead of time to watch out for my abilities so I can actually get something worthwhile out of it.
 
I feel that I am talking in circles here.  I am having trouble focusing on the subject at hand. 
 
I think it is quite admirable that you are helping others with these issues to pay back those who helped you in the past.
 
As far as the "scary reading", I felt like I was reading it like you would watch a scary movie...with you hands partially covering your eyes.  That just brought up so many things that I felt overwhelmed...that I couldn't comprehend how I was going to be able to deal with all of the things that happened to me in my childhood that are effecting me now.  I have never done well by myself even though I have pretty much been a loner.  I always wished that I would have close friends and intimate relationships, but only had very short lived relationships.  They started fast and ended fast.  they just reinforced my feeling of never being able to have the relationship I dreamed of from the age of 6.
 
I need to stop now because I think that I am just writing a bunch of unrelated stuff and it won't make any sense.  the only reason I am actually posting it is that maybe you could see some important details in what I have written.
 
I will look up the Box breathing, progressive muscle relaxation and distractions.  By distractions, I assume that you mean a hobby or something like that.


Take Care,

Steven
Davit
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6 years ago 0 Davit 6252 logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo
Steven

You missed one important thing in Attachment Theory, because it is scary and because you are thinking negative. And that is that no matter what category you are in right now and no matter for what reason, you can change to a more desirable one. You are not stuck there. The past is the past and has no value except to learn from. Only the present counts and any mistakes you make will be the past soon enough where they don't count. The future doesn't count since you know not what it will be, worry over it is a waste of time. Lets get you functioning in the present and the past and future will take care of themselves. 

Have you questioned why I am here. Simply this is how I pay my debt to those who stood by me during my crisis. I am alive because of them. I don't want anyone to go through the hell I did. And for those who must, I am here to make it easier for them. If they want it. There will always be those that just take the pills. I'm proof that CBT works. 

Because of a perforated Ulcer that got infected I can no longer take anti inflammatories. Inflammation is caused by an increase in blood flow and an increase of white cells to an area of stress in an attempt to try to repair it. It is normal but unfortunately painful. Reducing stress helps. There are three techniques and they cross over if you do all three. Box breathing, progressive muscle relaxation and distractions. Instructions for the first two are here, the third you pick out yourself.

I am here till you are either better or you give up. I will not cut you loose. CBT is not something I can do for you. I can help but you have to do the work yourself because it is your thought patterns that have to be changed. I can help with examples and information.
Group therapy works as an adjunct and it does good things but only CBT cures. 

Well you survived the scary reading. Any questions. You know you can't fix anything if you don't know why it is broke, without information all you can do is patch the symptoms. That doesn't make the psychiatrist wrong. It just puts things in order. You can drive a truck without knowing how the motor works and you can live with a panic disorder without knowing how the mind works. But information is power.

First though you need coping skills or all the information is worthless.

Davit.

Ps in future I can explain why the dreams and why they happen but right now you have enough information to deal with. Some might say too much.

Nice dog, yours?
StevenS
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6 years ago 0 StevenS 29 logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo
Davit, 

I am having a Crohn's episode today and have been feeling pretty miserable and also have had to take Darvocet and Bentyl and Levsin to try to help the pain and other symptoms.  These Crohn's episodes are almost always caused by anxiety.  And I have been going through allot fo anxiety thinking about Josh and also starting this program...which is quite scary to me and I have no support except for professionals and they all say, I need a bigger support group, but that isn't something you can advertise for. 
 
I just woke up from a dream where I was going to be put in prison (or a mental hospital) because I didn't have anyone to take care of me and I was having anxiety/panic symptoms.  I haven't woken up from a dream like that in a very long time.  I am noticing that with me coming off of the Paxil, I am experiencing things that I haven't experienced in years.  Depression is one that is again popping up, but at the same time, I don't have the "dead" feeling all of the time.  It is a double-edged sword.

I came in here and read your reply and looked up Attachment Theory and Thought Triangle and it scared me ALLOT.  It represented the possibility that I will never get over any of this because it goes back to so many things in my childhood.  It brought up so many bad feelings and made me feel so alone and that I can't do this by myself.  This is where Josh saying that, "he wouldn't leave me" and he "would be there, physically and emotionally" was supposed to give me that very special person to rely on going through all of this stuff.  I don't have anyone that I trust to the level I trust Josh and know I could do or say anything and he would take it in stride...this is how it was before he distanced himself from me and moved 25 miles away and with him losing his job and me having a truck that gets 10mpg, I can't go up there and he can't come down here so we can see each other as we did regularly before.  It has left me in an "in-between" state.  By me cleaning my house, I removed my "cocoon", my safe place and I now feel naked and without protection.  I have no safe place to go anymore.  This is overwhelming when I read stuff like I read on those two things.
 
I don't have very strong coping mechanisms in place.  I have tried some different techniques and they do help, but if something is really bad, I can't get to that internal space I need to go to be able to use the coping mechanisms.  That is where having another human that didn't judge and gave me the hugs and shoulder to cry on the the hand to hold and the help up from falling that I desperately need.  I am not in a great place right now to loose that support.  I am sure that you will say that I need to support myself, and in time that was the idea, but you don't push someone off of a cliff even with a parachute and tell them to figure it out on the way down and that is where I feel I am right now.  Please don't think that i am dumping on you, because that is not my intention.  I am just trying to be open and tell you what I am feeling.
Davit
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6 years ago 0 Davit 6252 logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo
Steven

You know this is a support forum and that is what we do well. But. It is also a place to share personal experiences so you don't feel alone because you are not alone in this. I fought this all my life and I'm 62. Around 6 years ago was the turning point but I didn't stop there. With the help of my therapist feeding me information I've been studying and questioning.
And God have I been learning. Some of it is scary. 
I know what your psychiatrist is saying and I agree up to a certain point. He/she? doesn't want you to get confused or off the track by second guessing. You could you know with too much information. You are just starting and there is so much to this thing. Oh it is simple in that you just change negative to positive. But to keep it there you need to know why it happened. So the information I give is conditional that you learn relaxation and coping skills before you try to do anything with it. Because of your background both of these are relevant to you. Both could be misunderstood.  One is attachment theory and it is on the net. The other is core beliefs. It is here but I think on the sister site, depression. The other information I gave you is only in therapists teaching, it is called a thought triangle and is not on the net that I know of. 

Davit
StevenS
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6 years ago 0 StevenS 29 logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo
Hi Davit,

I never thought of it that way, but it makes sense.  I understand what you are saying.  My negative thoughts come from being sexual abused as a child and then was further complicated by unsuccessful relationships I had where I basically drove people away with my constant need of reassurance and feeling of abandonment when we were not together.

I have overlaid those old thoughts onto Josh when he distanced himself saying that he thought I was falling in love with him.  Oddly, I was just being able to feel truly comfortable with him and intimate in a special way with him.  There is an emotional attachment and I do love him, but not in a romantic way.  Our interaction was intimate like one would be in a romantic relationship, but because he said from day one, that he didn't want a relationship because he was coming out of a 4 yr relationship and that he was seeing other people as well as me, I just enjoyed every moment of our time together.  Even though I had allot of tears, especially in the beginning, because it had been so long (11 years) since I was with anyone at all and I had allot of stored up emotions.  Something caused by my meds and the "dead" state they put me in for all of that time.
 
Josh, in this case is the trigger, but the source goes way back to my childhood and subsequently to all of the failed relationships that just added more bad memories regarding intimate relationships.
 
I don't know how to get to the root cause.  My psychiatrist said that it wasn't important to go back into the past to try to figure out things.  He said that dealing with how I now react/respond to the thoughts/situations is what needs to be worked on.
 
Although I understand that in concept, I would think that it would be important to go to the cause and then understand it and deal with those feeling and then work on things coming forward.  I am a bit confused about not needing to deal with the source issue.
Davit
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6 years ago 0 Davit 6252 logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo
Steven

It comes as a surprise to everyone when they are told that every thought and action you perform has to go through memory to figure out how. Think about it. How do you know how to do anything? Past experience, stored in memory.
Now take it another step. What happens with the thought or action you perform with the help of this memory? It gets stored for future reference. Now what happens when you think of Josh. Your memory searches for thoughts pertaining to the Josh thought. If all it can find is negative thought it will give you a negative thought which adds to the future reference. Not good hey. CBT works by teaching you to change these thought or if the Josh thought is too strong then it teaches you to change the thought on the reaction to the Josh thought. Either way the idea is to store positive thoughts for future reference. The forms I believe are to help you recognize these negative thoughts so you can change them. Like memory in a computer, last in first accessed.
So the Idea is to load memory with positive thoughts so the negative are hard to find. In time, end of panic.
Medication doesn't do this, it only makes access to memory harder hence the fogged in feeling.

I see you are disabled. Pain and pleasure sensors are very close. What blocks pain also blocks pleasure I'm afraid. I have Arthritis bad. I know what you are going to go through, be prepared for it to take a while for the meds to clear. Even after you stop them. As far as I know everything is reversible. Angiotension inhibiters have the same affect as does opiates. Benzodiazapenes restrict the number of channels a thought can use so usually are not a problem.

CBT does work.

Davit





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