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Panic attack.


10 years ago 0 6252 logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo 0
Cara

Please read the other post first. 
In answer to the other question how do you get it out of your head. That depends on whether it is there because of a situation that triggered it or because the situation is related to a core belief. If it is just a situation that is happening you can do it by challenging and thinking positive. That can be fairly quick. If on the other hand you are dealing with a core belief attached to the situation or a related memory then it takes a lot more work because core beliefs control our actions and tend to override attempts to stack positives in memory. This is protection of a sort. When this happens one gets a feeling that it isn't working. Well it isn't because to change a core belief you need more than a thought that is positive. You need perception, attitude and a strong belief. You have to understand the core belief is wrong and that you want to change it. You have to want to do it and you need a reason. And finally you need to really believe in what you are doing for it to stick. Core beliefs are like the boxes memories are stacked in. All associated memories will be in one box even though they touch other boxes. Core beliefs act in concert with other core beliefs to control how we act and how we think and how we feel. They are strong on there own but together they are invincible so people with strong positive core beliefs have little chance of panic. It is worth the trouble to make them so, even if it hurts to do so. ( changing core beliefs is the same as the feeling when some one betrays you) ( it hurts)
It is the same process as challenging and changing that is CBT thought restructuring. It is just harder and takes longer.

Davit. 

Ps Depression (not sadness) makes the whole thing harder to so, sadness can be cut through with will power.
10 years ago 0 6252 logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo 0
Cara

My therapist says that two things people have a very hard time accepting are that nothing ever leaves memory it just gets stored in layers like my onion analogy and there are lots of these stacks and that they interconnect like a spider web. Some times you have to go through more than one junction to get a solution. 
The other thing people have a hard time accepting is how fast the brain works. Which in turn makes it hard to accept that nothing just happens, it goes through a process of thought before every action. Think of it as reaction time. Subconscious thought has a very short reaction time. because it doesn't have to do anything. Conscious thought is the culmination of many subconscious thoughts. For every conscious thought there were many choices from memory that could have been used. Panic is when the wrong subconscious thought is chosen to become the conscious one. 
Stop right here if you can't accept this process because if you can't the rest won't make sense. Read it more than once or ask me to explain it better.

So do you understand how this works. all thoughts, random and intentional go through this process. So we have all these files in memory and every action or thought on that action, thought on the feeling or just contemplation becomes a new memory. And it is stored in the appropriate file. One on top of the other including duplications. It is known that the brain does this and it can be seem with equipment that shows the action but it is still not known how the brain stores this much information only that it does. All related thoughts are stored one on top of the other like the layers of an onion. With the latest thought on top. If you have just had a panicky thought it will be stored on top of the pile and ready for reuse with a trigger that sends your mind there. If your mind did not do a subconscious search through the stack before making the conscious decision we would only need one positive thought on the top of each stack. But it doesn't, it works very fast and even faster during panic. Survival, it wants the best answer. 

If you accept my word that every thought recycles to memory for future reference and if you accept that your mind does this quick search then it stands to reason that although you are feeling fine a trigger can send the search far enough down the stack to find a negative thought. and since that thought will create the action that recycles back to memory it is now on the top of the stack. Bingo, reoccurring panic. 
A little side trip here,  survival skills are all negative so if something calls for one it is more likely to dig till it finds one. Positive thought do no good so are passed by in the search.

So if you are still following this and can accept it then we come to how to stop the panic.

Remember the spider web. All these memories are connected to other memories that are related. So even a positive pleasant memory can have a connection to a negative unpleasant one if they have something in common. An example would be rain during a wedding. And the opposite, pretty flowers on a pets grave. These are called associated memories.

CBT works by changing the thought patterns so we stack enough positives on every memory that the negatives in the stack are hard to find. It is a slow process because we have to do it with the associated stacks also to prevent going to them with the trigger. 

So it works like this with every anxious moment we think a positive alternative or two or three and these will dictate the reaction that recycles back to memory and also dictates the next thought or action. It takes time to work because there are a lot of stacks. But positive breeds positive and a person starts to do it subconsciously because now it has subconscious positive choices to use to make the conscious one. 
Or as the program says, challenge every thought and find a positive solution. Those positive solution will be on top of the stack and by challenging the thought it will also find a positive to put on the associated stacks. A slow process but one that grows faster as it has more positive choices till there are so few negative choices left that they don't matter.
This is Cognitive therapy and has to be used with Behavioural therapy to work. The two go together. 
So it is rather simple every time you get anxious challenge it and find positives to think on. Use relaxation and coping skills to make it easier or even benzo's but never put a thought to bed so to speak with out thinking a positive alternative and you will soon have no reason to panic even with the usual triggers. One day the positives will catch up and you will wake up to a new you and a new world with out noticing it happened.

Davit.

Ps, if you can't understand how this works then just take my word for it and think positive all the time, it will take care of itself
10 years ago 0 169 logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo 0
So  I have good days where I feel good and no anxiety. I've been working real hard with CBT ,behaviour and thinking. But when it comes back, its like a wave and sometimes i'm not sure if I thought of something for it to come.  Then I dwell on it and question why it came back...and kick myself because it's back and start to worry, maybe its not anxiety and something bad.  Then Anxiety returns.
 
How do you get past this and just keep going when its always in the back of your head?
 
How do you unlearn and not get from memory???? Please help.
10 years ago 0 6252 logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo 0
I've been thinking a lot about why some one would want to do CBT. First off doing it is accepting there is something wrong with you. (well there is) If I'm sick, I either need medication or I can wait for it to go away. (it isn't going to go away, it will most likely get worse) There are easier things to do. (in the end they prove to be temporary) I can live with this. (why would you want to) Oh and the best excuse of all. I deserve this! (really)
In a world of chronic diseases it is easy to believe this is one too. ( it is only chronic if you don't fix it)
First off, this is a disorder not a disease, medication helps but won't change it. Medication can block it but it can also block life as it could be. Is it worth it. To those that have no idea how life after CBT can be it probably does seem worth while. (been there) Relaxation and coping skills will get you through the day. But you will have to do them all the time. Is this really easier than CBT. No, but they are easier to understand than CBT and they work faster. CBT is a slow process but it in time exceeds anything relaxation coping or medication can offer. If you believe you deserve this pain then you really have a core belief you need to work on. No one deserves this, no matter how bad they have been or what they have done. There are better means of restitution. (they can be done after you are cured)
So it only leaves one reason left not to do something and that is because it doesn't work. Lots of things don't work but this is not one of them. If it works for everyone that gives it a fair chance then it seems if it doesn't work for you then you aren't giving it a fair chance. (is it because you want something faster) That would be a normal thought in this disposable world we live in, this world with a new model and new version coming out every day. Are you waiting for the new CBT you can down load and it will do it for you. (that won't happen) You have to do this.
There are a few reasons left not to do this but I'm not allowed to be insulting here. Only you know if you fit. Some of you do. But what about the rest of you. 
What is your reason or reasons for not doing something that works. Because you don't believe me, I can understand that.
Definition of a testimonial. New version: A lie used to sell a product. This is free. This is not mine. The only thing in it for me is that those that do it and those that get better end up friends. A group of survivors that become a unique group. There is no other reason. And that may well be the final and most logical reason not to do CBT. Because it will change you. Maybe you can't do that. So I have to ask you, do you like who you are, if you do then why do you have stress and why are you anxious. Why do you have panic attacks. And why do all these things revolve around the word You. If you don't honestly like who you are then why would it be such a big deal to change. Because it would make you weak. Hmmm. That is an insult to me. I'm certainly not weak. Far from it. But neither am I aggressive. I'm just me and I like me and I like the world I live in and I contribute this to CBT. So since I'm fine, I'm still looking for a reason not to do CBT since it so obviously works. Now those of you that need medication to correct an imbalance and there are those, what is your excuse not to put in some time and do CBT if it will possibly remove the need for medication. Or at least reduce it and the side effects. I sure hated the side effects.

Davit.
10 years ago 0 6252 logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo 0
Hello Ashley. 

A panic disorder is far harder to live with than Arthritis although the stress of any chronic disease contributes a lot. I find that we have natural preventive attitudes that keep most anxiety acceptable and that is a big problem because when it overrides these then it is almost impossible to stop. Like a burst dam that just won't stop. It is so much worse than a nightmare that it is impossible to not think and worry about it. It is such a shock to have ones world fall apart like that.
This may feel like losing a leg but it isn't in fact it is more like breaking a leg. Yes you will never be the same, but You will heal. In the mean time it hurts like hell. And if you try to walk on it and ignore it, it won't heal. 
That said CBT does work. But of course it has to be done right to work. But it does work and that is the main thing. 
Still how do you convince people that don't understand how this works that it does, and there is the other fact that it doesn't happen as fast as people want. The odd relapse is really minor compared to day in day out panic and mine was that bad. Still the devil you know is better  than the one you don't. So when people give up I feel bad but understand. i always hope they will come back or have found the help they need.
We try, that is all we can do. The rest is up to them.

Davit
10 years ago 0 11210 logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo 0
Thanks for sharing your wisdom with us Davit!

 
 
 
Ashley, Health Educator
10 years ago 0 6252 logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo 0
Cara

Yesterday was a bit of a pain as my mind kept playing the what if thing. What if it happens again is a natural reaction but a nuisance to deal with even though the chances of it happening are very rare.

If you think of CBT as an onion. Layers upon layers of positives on top of a negative core it makes sense. If you peel off the positive layers you will get to the negative core and that is what I did. And if you think negative too much then there are no layers to protect you. If you have enough positive layers the odd bad day can't get through them but if there are not enough layers you can. 

Now this was not a bad thing to have happen because I have so much protection that I had forgot what a really bad panic attack was like. It may seem odd that I would be glad it happened but it puts me back more in tune with what other people feel. I don't want another because they really are horrible but I'm not afraid to either. Because I know that I can get rid of it relatively easy in about 15 minutes and life goes back to an acceptable normal and every time I do a what if I can shut it down. 

Today I am back to normal thinking positives and building layers back onto my CBT onion. Absolutely no what ifs or anxious thoughts. It is amazing, it is like it never happened.

Now, what happened is that I have the ability to feel what others feel and so there has been a lot of pressure lately on top of my own anxiety. I got tired and let some negative thoughts get through my positive thinking. Tired enough to not notice the agitation and the anxiety building. I usually notice and catch it. And I usually do this subconscious.

At this point you might be thinking it sounds like a lot of work. It isn't. It is like a game. Like checkers. For every negative thought there is a positive. Often a number of positives. It starts off as conscious thought finding these positives and in a few days you end up doing it subconscious. This is building the layers of the onion. It becomes a silent protection just there without you noticing. Life changes without you noticing and one day the anxiety just isn't there.
Great hey except to be sure it is gone you will likely peel off the layers to see for sure and sure enough if you look for it you can find it. No problem, just accept it and cover it up again with more layers of positive and leave it alone.
The core of my CBT onion is full of trauma and scary things I know but they are buried enough that without looking for them they have no affect on my every day life. This really does work and is a simplified version of what the program says to do in a step by step process. The program gives you techniques and charts to check progress also.
You can help this greatly by believing it will work and finding ways every day to be happy. Happy is very positive but often hard to do in a negative atmosphere. Easier for me because I'm retired and live in a more calm atmosphere than most people. 

Davit

PS you can do this, it was not always easy for me either, I had to learn how.
10 years ago 0 169 logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo 0
I forgot to ask how you burry them? I would love to bury my anxiety so I can never remember about them or anything?
 
I would like to finally be free of it.
10 years ago 0 169 logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo 0
Thanks Davit, I'm glad you posted this. Its good to know it happens to veterans.
 
It gives us some motivation...
 
I wish I am as strong as you are.
10 years ago 0 6252 logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo 0
For anyone who is interested my mind is playing post panic ticky ticky games. In years past this would have brought on another attack, now it is just annoying. But it is in memory and has to be buried. I will do that.

Davit

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